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My personal opinion is that I’d shout at you ADIRONDACK! One meant for strumming, and old if you can swing it. There is something Adirondack does for SC that italian or sitka does specifically not do, and I don’t think a cannon is suited to any other wood. I’ve had both italian and sitka, the italian had too much added to the upper voice of my guitar, and the sitka with EIR was too plain but very enchanting. If you’re using a pick I really think adirondack gives that quality to the attack and handles the input, Italian or Sitka is great on their finger style models which they seem to make a ton of – even larger guitars. I specify my builds are going to be strummed harder and need more input headroom. Adirondack + African Blackwood best sounding Santa Cruz or acoustic flat top I’ve ever heard FWIW over Brazilian and anything. In person it was just the ticket for me, but I didn’t like the rest of the guitar.
You could argue for the RS since it’s so big it could benefit from that extra added singing metallic top end harmonic that’s cold, but I would say just get a brazilian rosewood bridge and fingerboard to add it in behind the attack instead of on the front. If you’re wanting a slope shoulder you are probably not wanting the typical santa cruz attack voicing where there is more metallic sounds from the top strings sticking out than anything when you lay into it , and if you don’t tell them to not do that, they probably will – so if you pick it up and strum hard the voice is going to shift. I like a more compressed voice that can handle higher input like the Gibson style because when I’m singing I get the gusto and play harder… I guess I just don’t have the finesse haha but that’s what’s fun for me.
I don’t think you could get a big enough african for RS and if you did it would probably be too much. Mahogany is definitely a good choice for that and a brazilian bridge will liven it up in the larger body from what I’ve discovered. I would probably also get a cutaway on an RS because it’s big enough to not miss it and they do a good job with cutaway acoustic properties
I was surprised to find an advanced x braced mahogany OM Grand to me is actually very very nice. I think they do a great job with mahogany
RS seems like it’s going to be notably drier and barkier than the VS which would be more jangly and less ‘profound’ in the low end. I haven’t done an A/B so that’s my guess. I can’t find an RS in a shop anywhere. I did think the VS was too jangly and not enough of a cannon on both accounts that I played, sitka or adirondack… I don’t know how much they will change the voicing on request. I would only want it for strumming I don’t care much about finger style.
I haven’t played a VJ, wouldn’t be interested in the long scale for it. I played a VS but not an RS unfortunately.
I can compare the VS to about 10 1940s and 1950s gibsons mostly southern jumbos and j45 models in nashville.
The gibson has a finger style charm, but the Santa Cruz is definitely better for strumming. The one with sitka spruce was a total let down, maybe not setup well. The one with adirondack was serviceable but still was kind of a dud. I haven’t gotten to experience a proper VS. It didn’t respond to strumming the way it could have, and it wasn’t as good for finger style as something else. I went there thinking I’d buy a VS, and I would custom order mine, find an excellent vintage guitar, or find a very special VS that’s already been built and I could bond with in person.
I would not call them a cannon, they were not very powerful like a dread but had a better voice. I was not impressed with their strumming purpose though. I would love to have better words for my experience but that is as I lived it.
If the advanced jumbo had rosewood I’d say no it wasn’t modeled on that.
I would absolutely get one with old adirondack and good woody mid range punchy mahogany with a deep end because that’s what was missing… maybe a bit thicker top to handle the extra in put of strumming because it lost it’s voice composure when played harder. Hide glue and adirondack braces of course. I would also check about doing a rosewood bridge and fingerboard, the ebony didn’t seem to go with it for me. I didn’t even record a video, because none of the vintage gibsons and none of the santa cruz guitars that I played there were very good. I did find a nice strat but it was like 23,000 dollars. I have not been able to find or play any past that one store unfortunately, because I think I would like a VS or RS more than almost any other Santa Cruz if I could find a good one. I think the only thing I would like more than that is a 16 or 17″ F model with african blackwood and adirondack to have a good jumbo.
Yes Chris, I have never played a good example but the Gibson jumbos are supremely pleasing to me in terms of their sound… but there is always something about each one I’ve played that bothered me… they weren’t custom shops or anything…. or they were vintage ones and just worn out or better for finger style because they couldn’t handle strumming headroom or something. I played a bunch of old j45’s and jumbos of different sorts in Nashville on the Gibson wall and I loved it… but I didn’t find a single vintage one that strummed too well… the santa cruz surprisingly excelled there… I was shocked that the vintage gibsons had an enormous finger style charm to me… I thought it would have been the flip flop from that
I don’t have it anymore, but it was the standard OM Grand Depth. Richard said I have a choice, either deep body or advanced X bracing. I think that it would have been a much better idea on that guitar for what I wanted to do a deep body and regular bracing, especially based on other’s comparisons. I didn’t know that at the time.
I would love to play one… the particular one that I saw up for sale a couple of months ago sounded good, but not smashing and it didn’t take me , but I didn’t have the chance to play it in person, it was just their demos. They had a 40k archtop which in my opinion is just ludicrous, but it sounded exactly like what I would have expected the santa cruz to sound like. I was so shocked when I stumbled upon and bought this archtop I have, I didn’t know that I would be such a lover of them since I don’t play jazz and never really thought much of it. It’s the best sounding electric or acoustic I’ve ever heard or played in person to me. It’s a little quiet , in the shop getting a setup now… I kind of wish the pickup would have been a floater and that might’ve helped, but as it is I love the sound quality. They’re putting in a kent armstrong pickup right now
Thank you for the responses. I definitely think that stringworks guy looks really interesting 97. I don’t know enough about maple except that I love it on my archtop to order one on Reverb. I’d need to try it. I’m also looking specifically for Adirondack – and old growth for pick response. Strumming to me matters most. I love compressed percussiveness and piano like expanse and archtop like evenness up and down.
That’s a really interesting proposition about the baritone. I will keep that in the mind in the future. I’m not looking as much for the lower frequencies below what a guitar does, but I bet it sure is a blast! I worry that it would be too niche. I figure there is probably a reason guitars are tuned the way they are…. Wouldn’t mind having one in the future… I love piano like guitars.
That’s interesting about the F already having a deep body. I wouldn’t have guessed that. I didn’t remember it feeling deep or responding like it had one. It almost felt like the one I played had a shelf filter to where the 5th and 6th strings were reduced below the first through fourth intentionally
What tone woods have really deep fundamental power as well as a lot of non metallic air and punch? I played an adirondack/african blackwood guitar in Austin from Santa Cruz that was in that video and I absolutely loved the combination. EIR has been nice but lacking for me, cocobolo was really nice but I didn’t feel like it had enough punch in the mids I guess you could say and was a bit too wet. African blackwood kind of had traits strangely from maple and mahogany that I liked plus an unknown character.
Wow, that’s a great share!
I know with my OM Grand Advanced X braced… it was a delight finger style but I preferred the other one MOST of the time for strumming.
I think that video demonstrates you have to try to play one for yourself and if you can utilize both if necessary for your musical needs. Amazing the difference they make.
I think it’s interesting to note that I would disagree with Santa Cruz saying it makes it more bassy in a sense if they said that. Overall the EQ is more bass-y yes and the top end is wetter to me, but I find that the most fundamental low end disappears into the low mids with the advanced X also, so if you’re looking for the depth and not just bassy feels it would be the opposite. It’s good to ask a wide variety of people that have a lot of experience with them so you can gather their expenses. I’ve played about 15-20 santa cruz guitars and owned two. I like both bracings and it takes a long time to figure out how every piece effects the sound, but for me I like non advanced more of the time and tapered even more than that. They’ve done some interesting hybrid bracing also. Thank you for sharing that video, it is excellent and validated to my ears my thoughts. There’s something warm and happy about the advanced x and it would sound great if you were playing with someone on bass with you… especially if the tone wood were to be a bit punchier, drier, more air, and brighter like mahogany I think. I don’t see too many people using advanced x with mahogany though, so maybe there is a downside when you do that that I’m not aware of
I concur with the mid scoop… on my guitar, somehow the lowest of the lows and highest of the highs (and I don’t mean the air and extremes just the fundamental and chime) seemed to give way to low mids and upper/mids low treble. I wouldn’t think this was because cocobolo but maybe it doesn’t have as much depth and definition or chime as other woods and that’s why my guitar did not have that and ended up having two nodes in the EQ. I don’t know what to call them because usually with EQ a node is a bad thing.
Of everyone I’ve asked, nearly everyone said either that the adirondack braces and hide glue was the most important upgrade or they had just never had any experience comparing. I’ve never really had a side by side, but I had an H13 that was sitka/ EIR , and I always felt like it was a little blended (but enchanting), indirect, and just kind of dulled or missing something. Perhaps that is the edge or directness that those bracing options help with.
Hi, I did a video on this and posted on the forum…. you can also go to youtube and search Carmelo Santini as the channel, I compared two guitars but it wasn’t the only difference. One was adirondack/african blackwood with normal bracing with hide glue & adi…. the other guitar which was mine which was 5 years old was italian/cocobolo adirondack and hide glue but advanced x braced.
My takeaway for my preferences is that the advanced X seems to pull the low lows to the low mids and the high highs to the upper mids or lower trebles… it kind of loses some of the mid punch and piano balance in favor of a warm throaty nature and different upper mid characteristic. I would have to say that I needed more punch and mids because of it as well as more dry air and fundamental on the low end… so I would do advanced X with mahogany if I did it again or take it into consideration. The african blackwood without advanced X was much more level all the way through but didn’t have that character of the other one in some cases…. Good luck
Yeah that’s true, it really varies on the guitar. They both work great when you want to change it up to a certain direction
I put up a video comparison on the forum if you search for it or go to Carmelo Santini youtube channel… it’s lengthy and in depth
Yeah, I find Matt that archtop is just really my flavor, especially a 17″ . . . one that can still strum and play pop and soul etc is awesome. Somehow my Heritage does that. I’ll look forward to them recording it acoustically
I think adirondack/mahogany slope shoulder and 17″ archtop have to be my two favorites of everything I’ve ever played, drawing from really good J45’s , Roy Smecks, or L5’s. I find that with a flat top it has to be legendary and charming for me to love it, whereas a lot of decent arch tops are good enough to make me happy with them. Kind of like how almost any decent strat will do for me but a Les Paul or Tele has got to be remarkable
