SCGC used market

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    • #3004
      Hank
      Participant

      We on this Forum probably are the most interested in the used SCGC market…at least maybe.

      If the following question is not allowed please remove.

      I have been following the used SCGC used market (and have bought several over the years) and I am always amazed at the greater  % of depreciation of SC guitars versus other “Boutique” builders.

      As a buyer the lower resale value is a plus but as a seller, and a apostle, I don’t understand how one of the most respected builders in the world cannot command a greater selling price on the used market.

      When ever SC guitars are discussed on “that other forum” is is usually with great respect and admiration for the brand, but when compared to say Collings the resale price model to model is much less.

      I ask this question only on “Our” Forum because this group has the most history with SCGC and is the most educated about the subject. And, I won’t have to suffer the rudeness of the masses on “that other forum”.

      When I was in the boat business I was fortunate to represent only the top echelon of builders and saw how the dealer networks would support the resale value of their brands versus the competition….not price fixing but always a higher trade value or higher asking price for brokerage.

      I don’t want to rattle any cages here but I just don’t get how such a great builder can not obtain a higher price in the resale market.


      1993 Martin HD-28 IR/Sitka
      2001 SCGC F Cutaway Maple/German
      2008 SCGC OT Madi/Italian
      2015 SCGC OM “The Tree” Hog/ European
      2016 SCGC 1934 D45 Braz/ Adi
      2016 Taylor K62 CE Limited Edition 12 string all Koa
      2019 SCGC FTC Granadillo/Redwood
      Life is a journey…not a guided tour,
      The Bay,The Gulf Stream , The Open Ocean are particular about who they share their secrets with.

    • #3005
      Chrisakadigdog
      Participant

      A most formidable question .  My very simple partial answer.  Marketing imagery.    Why did more smokers buy Marlboro rather than Winston??    Winston lacked that association with the Wild West ???   Santa Cruz more akin to Frodo and the Hobbit……  Terrible analogy but I think it gets the elusive  dull point across. One of the great mysteries of our universe.  I,ve owned 12 Santa Cruz but only 1 Collings?  May the force be with us.   I HAV’NT HAD MY COFFEE YET

    • #3010
      Acoustic Soul
      Participant

      Yeah, I’m not sure how much Collings guitars cost because I’ve only ever shopped Santa Cruz… but getting a SC that’s really worth it in my opinion requires every upgrade.  The price gets pretty sky high, and I just figure that on a used market people aren’t willing to shell that out…. or maybe more importantly they know that there is no pressure for it to be sold closer to what it was paid for and they can just wait for a good one to pop up.

      I have sold a Santa Cruz before and only got like 45-60% of what I paid for it even though it was in mint condition and the guitar actually had more value than when it was new because of being played and aging for 3-4 years.  Why should I have lost so much on it?  Who knows, it discourages people from trading them around more I think because you don’t want to go buying things that you’re going to lose 5,000 dollars on.

      Because the kind of Santa Cruz guitars that I look for are almost never on the used market and even rarely built new, I don’t really benefit from them being so low on the market and too wish that the used market would come up.

      I mean, if the guitar is in good shape the more it is played and the older it is the higher value it has.  The guitar appreciated in value, but it seems like until its 15-20 years old nobody respects that.  Many Santa Cruz guitars are very cold from the factory, I don’t know why someone wouldn’t prefer used if they could get what they want.

      This is one reason I’m glad the shop went more custom lately.  A lot of the stuff out there doesn’t represent their best effort because I really feel that hide glue, adirondack braces, old growth adirondack top, and choice woods and options really allow the shop to deliver what I wish they delivered on every guitar.  They probably wouldn’t be able to stay in business though because they’d have to sell them all for 11-12K and it seems like the bulk of their guitars sell for 6-8k.  I mean, it is a LOT of money for a guitar but at the end of the day we all pay it because we can’t get it somewhere else with as much ethics, excellent service and understanding, or quality.

       

      In short, I too am puzzled by the fact that the resell is so poor on Santa Cruz despite them being the acoustic king.

      • #3016
        Hank
        Participant

        A.S.

        I have ALWAYS wondered why a “Opened Up”(which every guitar player I know wants) , mint condition instrument by SC does not APPRECIATE. They DO present a higher value sound when played….and all of us say that’s what we want.

        My 34 Zorro is now 3 years old and it is louder , richer and more impressive than when new.

        My OM “Tree” has developed more maturity in just the couple of years since I bought it used but little played by the previous owners…..I play it almost daily.

        The O.T. was Taylor’s main touring instrument and had hundreds of hours of playing time when I bought it from him. I have put at least another hundred hrs. on it and it still is “Opening Up”.

        In the high end yacht business if there were 2 exact boats, of the same age ,same condition for sale and one had 100 hours on it and the other had 500 hrs. on the engines the selling price was ALWAYS higher for the higher hour vessel. Why ? it was a Proven and experienced craft. Engines were built to run not sit at the dock.

        Fine guitars are meant to be played…not be locked away in a case.


        1993 Martin HD-28 IR/Sitka
        2001 SCGC F Cutaway Maple/German
        2008 SCGC OT Madi/Italian
        2015 SCGC OM “The Tree” Hog/ European
        2016 SCGC 1934 D45 Braz/ Adi
        2016 Taylor K62 CE Limited Edition 12 string all Koa
        2019 SCGC FTC Granadillo/Redwood
        Life is a journey…not a guided tour,
        The Bay,The Gulf Stream , The Open Ocean are particular about who they share their secrets with.

        • This reply was modified 1 year ago by Hank.
        • This reply was modified 1 year ago by Hank.
        • This reply was modified 1 year ago by Hank.
        • This reply was modified 1 year ago by Hank.
    • #3012
      Hank
      Participant

      Naw Chris I can’t agree with that analogy…Brad Paisly, Don Edwards,Eric Clapton, Otis Taylor, Catfish Kieth,Scott Law,Tony Rice, Eric Skye…none of these artists are fantasy types. well maybe Janis and Sonia ( don’t yell sexist at me).

      I was attracted to SCGC when I purchased a D-A1 from a Guitar Center here in Ft Myers……They did not appreciate what they were selling…I stole IT.

      When I worked for Boston Whaler (when they were a privately owned company) part of the selling presentation was their high resale value and their durability. When I began to look into SCGC I was very attracted by the “Built to be passed on” and “The sound Musicians want” logos.

      I understand and support ” The Maestro’s” business ethic and I know that his build the best not the most is the right way.

      I know when I sold several SC instruments through a SC dealer I was a bit taken aback when they applied the same formula for depreciation that they applied to factory mass built instruments.

      There may be no answer to the question , but it does float around in my feeble brain……and I would like to see appreciation for the brilliance of Mr. Hoovers,and his artists.


      1993 Martin HD-28 IR/Sitka
      2001 SCGC F Cutaway Maple/German
      2008 SCGC OT Madi/Italian
      2015 SCGC OM “The Tree” Hog/ European
      2016 SCGC 1934 D45 Braz/ Adi
      2016 Taylor K62 CE Limited Edition 12 string all Koa
      2019 SCGC FTC Granadillo/Redwood
      Life is a journey…not a guided tour,
      The Bay,The Gulf Stream , The Open Ocean are particular about who they share their secrets with.

      • This reply was modified 1 year ago by Hank.
      • This reply was modified 1 year ago by Hank.
    • #3019
      Chrisakadigdog
      Participant

      As one auto parts salesman now a guitar salesperson once relayed to me. Santa Cruz is just not as known back here east of the Mississippi.   Santa Cruz advertisements are always classy and appealing.

      I don’t think it lacks for known player’s loving them .   All things come in good time and Santa Cruz Guitars are still on the rise.        I’m looking forward to my next SCGC  build.

    • #3021
      Chrisakadigdog
      Participant

      I’m happy as bird in the morning sun finding this used gem

    • #3031
      bert
      Participant

      According to Dana Bourgeois, 95% of guitar buyers can’t afford a handmade boutique guitar. I own SCGC, Collings, Bourgeois. Each company has a profile, like or dislike. Collings has a higher profile, they build 1300 acoustic guitars/yr with the Collings name on the headstock. The late Bill Collings had a likable personality, as big as they come in fact and uniquely one of a kind. He drove the companies image in the market.

      The name on the headstock means a ton to me but that’s not the reason why I own… playability and vibe are where it’s at. My SCGC VJ is 18yrs old and absolutely the sweetest guitar I’ve ever owned.

      The times they are a changin – B Dylan
      Eastman makes high end archtops, flattops, mandolins, violins, double bass, orchestral instruments, el al.  All of their instruments are hand made by experience luthiers, I own an archtop plus two of their flattops. Price, performance, and quality are driving everything is my point.

      FYI This is what I’m layin down…. don’t shoot:

      An Important Message From Dana Bourgeois
      “I’d like to take this opportunity to share some exciting news.

      For decades, Bourgeois Guitars has combined the highest quality tonewoods, uncompromising craftsmanship and a deep passion for music to produce some of the world’s finest and most innovative steel string guitars. Over the years we have been fortunate to enjoy steady growth. We believe, however, that the world market is changing. After extensive study, we’ve concluded that partnership with a proven international distribution and manufacturing company offers significant strategic opportunities that cannot otherwise be grown from within.For several years we have been on the lookout for the right partner, and, moreover, one whose core values are closely aligned with those of our own. Today I am pleased to announce, with excitement and pride, that Bourgeois Guitars has entered into a strategic partnership with Eastman Music.
      Eastman is a truly impressive company. Well known to many of you as a producer of archtop, steel string, classical and electric guitars, Eastman enjoys a long-standing reputation for providing outstanding value, quality and service to the musical instrument community. Less well known, Eastman is one of the largest producers of violin family instruments in the world. And with its other boutique manufacturing partners, Eastman also makes some of the world’s finest woodwind and brasswind instruments.
      As you may or may not know, I’ve always had partners. Years ago Bourgeois Guitars merged with Pantheon Guitars to produce acoustic steel-string instruments under the Bourgeois name. In a nutshell, I have simply traded my former partners for Eastman. Moving forward, I will retain an ownership interest in Bourgeois Guitars and will remain as CEO. Our entire team will continue to produce acoustic guitars of the highest quality in our Lewiston, Maine, workshop. US distribution will continue to be handled through our Lewiston office. Eventually, overseas distribution will be managed by Eastman.
      We have always held great concern that, at an average street price of about $6500, a Bourgeois guitar is beyond the reach of 95% of all guitar players. Plans are underway to remedy this situation with the introduction of a new series of acoustic guitars co-produced by Bourgeois and Eastman. Bourgeois will be responsible for design, materials selection, voicing, setup, and quality control, and Eastman will contribute efficient manufacturing and sourcing capabilities and expertise in global distribution. This project builds upon a successful model pioneered by Eastman and its other high end manufacturing partners. Additional new products, including Bourgeois archtops, mandolins, and US made Eastman acoustics, are also on the drawing board.
      Speaking for all of us at Bourgeois Guitars, we wish to thank you for your continuing support. We look forward to sharing an engaging and exciting future with all of you.”
      Dana Bourgeois
      CEO, Bourgeois Guitars

      • This reply was modified 1 year ago by bert.
      • This reply was modified 1 year ago by bert.
      • #3036
        Hank
        Participant

        So while it is none of my business what Dana does with his company and I really have no opinion as to his plan, it does bring to mind that old Marketing 101 saying : if there is more of a product available to the market then the price for that product should decline. If a competitor  intentionaly reduces the amount of product to the market his product should command a higher price. Quality being equal.

        It would appear that with the recent changes in supply philosophy by Mr. hoover and and Mr. Bourgeois that the SCGC products should gain in value.


        1993 Martin HD-28 IR/Sitka
        2001 SCGC F Cutaway Maple/German
        2008 SCGC OT Madi/Italian
        2015 SCGC OM “The Tree” Hog/ European
        2016 SCGC 1934 D45 Braz/ Adi
        2016 Taylor K62 CE Limited Edition 12 string all Koa
        2019 SCGC FTC Granadillo/Redwood
        Life is a journey…not a guided tour,
        The Bay,The Gulf Stream , The Open Ocean are particular about who they share their secrets with.

    • #3033
      Chrisakadigdog
      Participant

      We SCGC  players I think are inspired more by the benevolent pilgrimage of great tonal  acquiescence.THUS the Hobbit journey and RH as our Gandolph.     Hahaha.   Maybe the next SCGC  promo add we could get Richard in a Gandalf  robe raising a SCGC guitar like lightening rod staff with of few of us Hobbits gathered around.. FANTASY??

    • #3035
      Acoustic Soul
      Participant

      Hahaha Chris, “it’s truly the small things in life” … love that quote from the movie.  That would be a funny poster

    • #3037
      haasome
      Participant

      I’m not a marketing expert, but it seems to me that it’s about expectations — for both supply and demand. And how the expectations balance with the reality of the marketplace. I’ve read that everything will sell, once the right price has been stablished for the product being sold in the marketplace. This will depend on the 4 Ps or marketing (product, price, promotion, and place.) So there needs to be balance and that’s for the wizards who do this type of planning and forecasting.

      I own and have owned guitars built by builders who build 10 guitars/year, 100/year, 500/year and 50,000/year. I have been able to sell every guitar I’ve purchased new for a price between 65% and 75% of what I paid for the guitar new — with one exception: the one guitar I purchased from an little-know luthier that builds 10/year. I have not found SCGC guitars I’ve sold to be at much of a disadvantage. They need to be sold where people who are familiar with the brand are looking to buy.

      The easiest guitars to sell (for me) were Martin, Taylor, Gibson, Froggy and Collings. SCGC, Bourgeois, and H&D took a little longer. The most difficult for me to sell was Goodall and little know luthiers.

      I’m not sure SCGC sells at a much lower price point used when compared to other brands with similar market share. On one hand I’d like to see some data. However, I never buy a guitar with selling being part f my plan. All IMHO.


      – Paul –

    • #3045
      tadol
      Moderator

      With many guitar brands, you kinda know what you will hear or feel before you pick the instrument up. I see a Collings, I usually expect to hear an edgier/chimier tone, a Goodall I think more lush and overtone. But there isn’t a big range between their offerings – and the general market likes items that they can classify by part number and easily categorize, and fall easily into expectations.

      Santa Cruz, unfortunately, doesn’t fit that mold as easily – they are known for their excellent build quality, while still being largely hand-made, and they are also known for their general balance, which is not EQ. But every model of Santa Cruz guitar you play has a tone and eq that is idealized in that model. Add to that the fact that so many SC guitars are custom in some way, and you get even further from a standardized model no/classification system – you get unique instruments that kinda require you to partner with them as you play. Not every SC is right for every player, but SC can build the right guitar for any serious player, and their standard models are excellent choices for anyone not entirely sure or ready to customize their choice –

      Most small builders / solo luthiers work really hard to achieve consistency, so their name and models and product has that same appeal that the large factory shops have, with the main goal being to meet a consumer price point. Sure, the chocolate and the strawberry taste different, but you know it all came from McDonalds. The next step up, the one that is almost impossible to achieve without a great deal of continual evaluation, is to keep everything that is necessary to the essence of the thing, but to maximize the potential of the process and materials. Richard has brought Santa Cruz as close to that as you can achieve – a solo builder can only make so  many instruments one at a time, and a production shop generally gets its advantage from building more generically in quantity. Richard has melded the unique combination of the solo builder along with the cost savings and precision production capabilities of a small factory.  Its an unusual business model, too hard for many to understand, and it exists solely due to Richards drive and vision –  and unfortunately, what people don’t easily understand, they don’t usually value (or are willing to pay for ) –

      I tend to think of it as a choice – you can just go buy a guitar made by some other shop, but with Santa Cruz and Richard, they build YOU a guitar.  A limited number of people will truly appreciate it – but luckily, he only needs a limited number of us.  We just need to help spread the word to others who can appreciate what SC does –

      PS – I don’t complain that Santa Cruz generally don’t demand high used prices – its helped me get some incredible guitars I probably couldn’t have afforded otherwise –  😉

    • #3046
      Hank
      Participant

      Very well said Tad.

      Please don’t think that I am complaining about SC used prices. I also have benefited from the lack of appreciation( in both definitions of the word) .

      I just have always been struck by the inequity in the price of used SC instruments.

      Whenever I have sold one of my SCs it has always been one that I purchased used,so I have not suffered the 40-50%  depreciation that I have seen with some of the listings on other sites.

      And, you are correct in that each SC model is “voice” unto it’s self.

      When I first began obtaining SCs I played lots of the other Boutique Brands and some Custom Shop Martins.

      I always came back to SCGC instruments….the various voices were always in Harmony with my soul.


      1993 Martin HD-28 IR/Sitka
      2001 SCGC F Cutaway Maple/German
      2008 SCGC OT Madi/Italian
      2015 SCGC OM “The Tree” Hog/ European
      2016 SCGC 1934 D45 Braz/ Adi
      2016 Taylor K62 CE Limited Edition 12 string all Koa
      2019 SCGC FTC Granadillo/Redwood
      Life is a journey…not a guided tour,
      The Bay,The Gulf Stream , The Open Ocean are particular about who they share their secrets with.

    • #3049
      bert
      Participant

      I bought my 2002 Tony Rice when it was 1 1/2yrs old. Was my main guitar for 6yrs, sold it for 500 more than I had invested. It was an outstanding guitar, my playing style evolved and I decided to move away from EIR and primarily to mahogany and other tonewoods.

      day in the life

    • #3055
      Acoustic Soul
      Participant

      bert, I started with an EIR H and also decided to move towards mahogany and other woods evolving within the santa cruz family myself too

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