Koa more expensive than African Blackwood

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    • #5521
      Dannymeeg
      Participant

        Hey all,

        Hope this is the right category. Just wondering about Santa Cruz guitars made with Koa for the back and sides.

        I note there’s an upcharge of $2700 for Koa on Santa Cruz guitars and only $2300 for African Blackwood. My other favourite guitar brand is Lowden and they include Koa in their core series whilst African Blackwood is only available in their top of the line custom range at a considerable upcharge (don’t ask me how I know).

        Just wondering if any of you know why the Koa is so much more expensive on Santa Cruz guitars? I’m just curious really. Is their Koa really special? Do any of you own one made with Koa? Not buying another Santa Cruz anytime soon unfortunately but I think Koa would definitely be in the running of I was.

        Would appreciate your thoughts!

         

        Danny

      • #5522
        indexless
        Keymaster

          Aloha Danny,

          Richard has been using KOA since the beginning, it’s a fantastic wood, don’t look at any SCGC Koa guitars unless you have sunglasses on, they are special instruments. DigDog (AKA Chris) has some spectacular pieces.

        • #5523
          Dannymeeg
          Participant

            https://youtu.be/ORC-BdYTgaU

            Well it certainly makes for an incredible sounding instrument as you can tell from the video above!

            Amazing clarity! I’d love to play one!

          • #5525
            Chrisakadigdog
            Participant

              Hi Denny,   As a long time SCGC patron and a KOA crazed woodworker I can tell you that SCGC has some of the best KOA sources than most.   I’ve had a number of custom koa guitars made for me by Santa Cruz and all have been spectacular sounding looking guitars.  KOA like many woods come in different quality / grading levels and associated pricing levels.

              I’ve spoken with Richard on several occasions about his quality compared to what I’ve seen  and have in my coffers.

              Simply put in my words ,Richard  sources only the best most highly figured and best tap tone sets for his KOA built instruments.     Suppliers ,wood sources can all have their $$$$ value based on supply,  demand and availability .

              from my experience African Blackwood is a denser heavier wood compared to koa and possibly a level less controlled in the wood market.     I know Lowden and Furch both use Blackwood in there guitar builds

            • #5526
              Dannymeeg
              Participant

                Thanks for that Chris!!

                I certainly would love to get a chance to play a Koa Santa Cruz someday!

                The pictures online and the YouTube videos will have to do for now!

                • This reply was modified 3 years ago by Dannymeeg.
              • #5528
                tadol
                Senior Moderator

                  I think its important to emphasize that Richard is very particular about how and where his koa is sourced from – true Hawaiian koa has been extremely over-harvested, and much of it is now protected. This wasn’t always the case – when koa was first brought onto the market, it was cheaper than walnut, and because of its unusual color and figure, got used for everything. Richards first guitars were made with koa – I have D#4, and its lived a very hard life, but its still a very nice guitar – and SCGC has used koa quite a bit over the years. But increased awareness and demand caused the price and availability of the premium material to skyrocket. Nice, because it meant we didn’t see so many large sets of kitchen cabinets being made from flamed koa, but not nice, because it caused quite a black market in koa. Lots of very old trees were getting cut on protected lands, or individuals were finding stumps on their property after a weekend away –

                  Richard won’t use anything that isn’t correctly obtained, and of the best quality – which means that the amount of material available is small, and the price can be high. But his resources and connections are deep and well established, so Santa Cruz should always have outstanding guitars made from premium koa available to purchase  – but I doubt the price will come down.

                  As said above, there are a number of very nice acacias, and some are extremely difficult to tell apart from Hawaiian acacia koa, and even have much of the same color and figure, so we’ll see what that means in years ahead. And with the increase in demand and price, there is more effort to replant and grow more on the islands, so again, we’ll see what that means in the years ahead. But maybe not my lifetime. That’s OK – I have all the koa SC guitars I need (about 6!)

                  Yes – if you want koa, SCGC is definitely the shop to talk to –

                • #5532
                  Dannymeeg
                  Participant

                    Thanks for that Tadol! That’s really informative and exactly what I was after!

                    Any chance of seeing any pictures of all these Koa guitars you guys have? 🙂

                    • This reply was modified 3 years ago by Dannymeeg.
                  • #8524
                    Brad Maestas
                    Participant

                      Here is a Bob Brozman Professional Baritone that I got a year ago on a trade with Carter Vintage. I traded in a sweet little SCGC OO. The old Santa Cruz-branded Grovers were on their last legs so I replaced them. It’s currently sporting a set of the Low Tension Parabolics and it sounds and feels incredible. Very supple feel, super easy to play, and it speaks very quickly and evenly.

                    • #8525
                      Brad Maestas
                      Participant

                      • #8535
                        dwarfrat
                        Participant

                          I was lucky to play Brozman #1 when Bob handed me his at a residential seminar at his house. I loved it, but had no need for a baritone guitar.

                          I also happened to be at the old SCGC shop on Ingalls the day Bob picked up his #1. He drove his ’49 Caddy Convertible to get it.

                           

                        • #8536
                          pto
                          Participant

                            very very little D. melanoxylon can compete with finest Koa and Brazilian, say. trees are too small, twisted, and gnarly. because of the diameter, most NICE quartersawn includes sapwood (Jeffrey Elliott is, as far as i can tell, one of the biggest users of African Blackwood). but most of the time there are cracks, wormholes at worst and flatsawn sections at best. truly fine blackwood is at least equal in cost to the finest Koa, represented by the Brozeman above. (that is truly beautiful!). nothing beats the beauty of the finest Koa, but it’s really tough to find  Blackwood with the perfection of the Brozeman example. i have pics, but can’t figure out how to post here. a perfect flitched set of blackwood which will be used by John Slobod; and a finshed guitar by Mr. Truaugot.

                             

                          • #8537
                            pto
                            Participant

                              another thing i can’t always do on this site is edit my own posts when logged in. sometimes yes, sometimes, like now, no.  it’s Traugott:)

                               

                            • #8542
                              dwarfrat
                              Participant

                              • #8546
                                indexless
                                Keymaster

                                  What a great photo

                                • #8544
                                  iim7V7IM7
                                  Participant

                                    Finding well seasoned, quartersawn tonewoods such as Koa or African Blackwood has for years now become more difficult. This set of African Blackwood was one that I selected for a luthier built guitar almost a decade ago. This quality of wood is rarer than hen’s teeth these days. Most of African Blackwood sets that Insee being used these days are flatsawn.

                                    African Blackwood Set

                                    Here is the set in the finished guitar. The set was large enough to eliminate the sapwood and was able to fill some of the small worm holes. You can see the true color in natural sunlight.

                                    Kleppee OM

                                     

                                     

                                     

                                  • #8552
                                    pto
                                    Participant

                                      YEP

                                    • #8553
                                      pto
                                      Participant

                                        Set for John Slobod 00-. rereading a note from John, African Blackwood is sawn up in Africa, so no flitched sets… the luthier has to match.

                                      • #8554
                                        pto
                                        Participant

                                          Traugott R African Blackwood

                                        • #8560
                                          Hank
                                          Participant

                                            My Sc 000 African Blackwood set.

                                            I do love Koa…. I have a Taylor K62ce 12er I bought from Digdog…..It’s Very different than the AB

                                          • #8561
                                            Hank
                                            Participant

                                              Finished.

                                            • #8562
                                              Hank
                                              Participant

                                                This set was ( I was assured ) some of the last of the RH Reserve of obtainable AB. 1/4 sawn… I don’t know ?

                                                 

                                              • #8563
                                                pto
                                                Participant

                                                  this is why we love it!

                                                • #8564
                                                  iim7V7IM7
                                                  Participant

                                                    I participate in a number of guitar enthusiast forums. This forum is unique in that every post that I contribute that includes an attached image requires moderator approval before it can be shared. I have a post in this thread that has been awaiting moderator approval for days. I assume that this rule applies to other participants, yet I see images from others who posted after I did.

                                                    This policy does not promote participation nor is it scalable. When someone is an established forum member, I know of no other forum that operates under such a restrictive policy. This policy makes me not want to participate here. What is odd is my words in this moderation policy gripe are free to be read contemporaneously. The limitation is on images.

                                                  • #8565
                                                    pto
                                                    Participant

                                                      i had the same problem. my most recent above-posts with pics needed approval and were posted before 12 hours were up. month or so ago, i had one that never showed up at all.

                                                    • #8566
                                                      pto
                                                      Participant

                                                        i just edited the above post, hit submit and it disappeared, including the ability to edit again. that’s the second time that has happened in a month. could be my browser, but i don’t have the energy to investigate further.:)  i Do appreciate the moderators’ job, though. given all they have to put up with entities outside us-guys!

                                                      • #8567
                                                        iim7V7IM7
                                                        Participant

                                                          My last post has been waiting for 3-days for moderator approval. I suspect Richard N does all the moderation and is traveling to NAMM. As I said, not a scalable model, nor one that promotes contemporaneous conversation. I know of no other guitar forum that operates with such a cautious footing for posting images vs. posting words.

                                                        • #8568
                                                          Hank
                                                          Participant

                                                            Our old Forum was wiped out by bots …..we lost a Hell of alot of good stuff  and contact with an amazing group of “Characters”with no way of recovery….. That we have what we have is the result of a great deal of VOLUNTEER time, and personal input.

                                                            The edit capability need improvement… no question about that.

                                                            I am not a computer geek by any strech …..but I think it takes time and $$$ to “scale up”….. Maybe that’s not the goal here ?

                                                            Peace & Fair Winds.

                                                             

                                                          • #8559
                                                            iim7V7IM7
                                                            Participant

                                                              Here’s a nice quartersawn, fiddleback Koa set from a luthier built guitar from about 6-years ago.

                                                              Koa Back Set

                                                              Here is the same set in the finished instrument.

                                                              Same Set Under Nitro

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